This is a travesty. You should all be ashamed of yourselves for giving zero points to a brilliant album from one of the greatest bands ever. I guess the only silver lining is that now that you've broken poor Phil's heart again he'll be inspired to write another great record.
This gave me flashbacks to being in junior high and learning guitar. Friends asked me over to play and their entire repertoire was Rush(mostly), Genesis and Yes (sorry CJ). I’m still friends with those guys even if I was the outcast for NOT liking prog and no, I still can’t play in 13/8 but they all still can.
That's okay, Darryl. I admitted to the rest of the guys that every time I listened to Duke on Spotify it would serve up a Rush song as soon as the album ended. I guess the universe is just against me on this one.
Genesis & Yes were always considered prog. King Crimson and ELP, too, but I never got into either of them. Rush always felt more like a rock band and Pink Floyd was so huge they kind of transcended all genres, yet now all of the above (and Jethro Tull) are considered the big bands of prog.
It did seem like a lot of folks liked all of those bands as a point of style. Ask someone what bands they like and if they named one of the aforementioned, they would invariably mention one of the others. Rush went through a lot of changes to their sound and the side long pieces faded eventually. I’m going to revisit Duke. I’ll see which Rush tune pops up when it is done.
TBF I’m a halfway fan of both genesis eras but only about 20% of their songs. The greatest hits album does me just fine. Favorites are Home by the Sea, Mama and Invisible Touch.
I love the banter guys, but as always you featured the wrong album. Genesis had about 7 good years that ended with ABACAB. That album still holds up today. After ABACAB, Phil went pop/awkward R & B with insipid songs like "Another Day in Paradise" and Mr. Rutherford decided to retool his songcraft with a deceptively considered "supergroup" best know for letting the lead singer croon his big hit with Squeeze, "Tempted". SAD. You all need to raise your game when picking an album. The bullseye is just to the left (so to speak)
Thanks for the comment, Jon, glad you're enjoying the discussion. Abacab is yet another great Genesis album but it comes after Duke in the discography and while it has strong singles the Duke Suite is much a better example of their prog roots than Dodo/Lurker. Hope you'll stick with us even if we keep picking obscure albums!
I don't think I've ever read or listened to a set of reviews that misses the mark more than this. Especially the person who was questioning the "motive" of why Turn it On Again is in 13.
Didn't even consider that maybe the song just turned out that way, completely because that's just what Phil thought sounded cool. Lazy music criticism lol.
Every time I see someone hating on anything in the progressive rock sphere, a central argument is that prog musicians always just write the music to be as complex as possible. Sure that was the case sometimes, especially with groups like ELP or projects like Yes' Relayer (which I adore), but in the case of an album like Duke, or most of the music by Genesis in general, the complexity is a function of just what the musicians thought sounded interesting. There wasn't a concerted effort to make Duke as complex as possible, they just wanted to write pretty and interesting music.
And even then, what's wrong with technical calculated complex song writing? They're acting like if music is composed and thought out, that somehow makes it artificial and therefore bad. What a crock of shit lol. Duke is just as "authentic" as anything put out by Nirvana or other artists praised for their seeming authenticity, which was just that. Nirvana's biggest tracks are deceptively complex in the production and songwriting. Kurt Cobain was a very intelligent songwriter after all and he had some of the smartest up and coming producers helping him make Nirvana's music come to life. What bands usualy get shit on more for being "fake and artificial" though? Not Nirvana or any of their contemporaries, that's for sure.
I guess some people just like a boring or less composed or slightly sloppy songwriting style? Ok, that's fine. I can get down with music that is a bit more restrained in songwriting choices. However the way they criticized the album doesn't seem to come from a place of understanding or good faith. That all reads as insecurity from someone who doesn't understand how odd meter works and has a limited pallete of "acceptable rhythms"
It also ties into this long standing perception that putting a lot of effort into your songwriting or being good on an instrument is uncool or inauthentic. Fuck the punk rockers and "poptimists" who brought this ideological malaise onto the music community.
I'm sorry you don't understand how 13/8 works or what a deceptive cadence is or how key modulations work, but don't let that be an excuse to lash out in jealousy at the musicians who like to use those tools. People writing complex music and the fans of that music aren't inherently elitists or pretentious, you just don't get what they're going for. And that's ok, I don't get what 99% of punk is going for and I'm totally secure in that.
I also rolled my eyes at the guy who claimed to be a Rush fan but didn't like Duke because it was "too much wanking off" or whatever. Bruh, I love Rush but it's just as easy to say they're wanking off in their songs lol. Rush is the band that wrote La Villa Strangiato: an excersize in self indulgence for gods sake...Pot meet kettle lol.
Then the guy starts questioning why Genesis and Rush are both considered prog. It's like he is completely ignorant if the first quarter or so of Rush's releases and the themes explored in those albums and their influences at the time, which heavily included Genesis! Most of Cygnus Book 2 is very much genesis inspired in the song writing, and Peart himself has stated that Phil was a big influence on his playing style for a bit there in the 70s. Is this satire? Seriously how can a self proclaimed Rush fan be that ignorant of the band's influences and genre they work in.
Like it's fine, they don't have to like it, Genesis isn't a band for everyone. But the rest of the people after that first guy acted like listening to Duke was torturous and that absolutely baffles me. There's way worse music out there and they're acting like Duke is in the same level of quality. What do they consider good if Duke is a 0 rating??
I don't understand the mindset of music writers like this and I don't understand the brain of a music listener who thinks Duke is worthy of a 0 score. Do people just have it out for Phil that bad? Did one of Tony's synthsizers kill a loved one?
I'd like to see what kind of music these people listen to normally. I could tell that they don't have the patience for anything related to prog, and I suspect their music library would reflect that. And that's okz but at least make an attempt to find and talk about good qualities.
All the reviews after the first guy just come off as fart smelling and pure ignorance of the music in an attempt to be cool and edgy. Yawn.
If were to have a blog like this and gave as dismissive and shitty of a review for Nevermind, or Songs for The Deaf, or Damn, or Music Has The Right To Children, or My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy or any other beloved album, I would lose all credibility as a music critic. A negative review is 100% ok and actually important to give other perspectives on a work, but a dismissively ignorant one is never cool.
I’m well aware of Rush’s catalog—early, middle and late. Of course, there are plenty of prog elements in their music, but there’s also plenty of pure rock. And here’s where the chasm between Rush and Genesis widens. Rush rewards its fans for putting up with their self-indulgence. For every “By-Tor” there’s a “Fly by Night”. For every “2112” there’s a “Something for Nothing”. And for every “Camera Eye” there’s a “Limelight.” What’s the reward for sitting through the Duke Suite? “Turn it on Again”? C’mon.
The other difference is personal taste. I actually enjoy “Lamneth” and “Xanadu” and “Cygnus” whereas I’ve never been able to make it all the way through “Roundabout”. So, I bristle when Rush gets tossed under the banner of prog with Genesis and Yes because it’s such a reductive and limiting description of all the types of music Rush encompasses.
You are absolutely correct that Phil Collins was a huge influence on Neil. (And for the record I have nothing against Phil personally. I wish him only the best.) But, an influence is only a small part of the whole individual. You take what you like best about an influence and incorporate it into your own style. Ayn Rand was also a big influence on Neil. But, you don’t many Rush fans racing out to join Dagny in Galt’s Gulch. It’s just another piece of the puzzle. That’s all.
Thank you for your impassioned defense of Genesis, Nick. This is exactly the kind of dialogue we were hoping to inspire. I hope you’ll stay with us.
I think Genesis is a good band. Songs like Misunderstanding, Abacab, and Turn it on Again are great,
interesting rock songs. Their mid to late 80’s stuff sort of sucked but I can probably come up with 10 solid Genesis songs I like, a couple of them coming from Duke. I am a big fan of prog rock. I like putting in the time. I like to dissect songs while I listen to them and prog rock is usually chock-full of interesting unique moments. Now when the conversation turns to Rush and if they fall under that umbrella I think it’s best putting them under a separate category. It’s a category of one because when it comes to musicianship, creativity, song writing, longevity, influence, the robustness of your song catalog, amount of stellar albums, live shows, the devotion of your fans, and the accumulation of all out wow let me rewind and listen to that drum fill, bass line or guitar part again moments the only place Rush belongs is under the category titled Greatest Band Ever.
I feel Duke has it moments but it seems like it is Genesis still trying to figure out their direction as a trio. Duke sounds like they had one foot in prog and the other in rock at the time. One could argue that "Turn it on Again" is Genesis' finest "rock" creation...there's something about the desperation in that song that gets me every time. Collins' vocals are amazing and the odd meters make perfect sense. "Misunderstanding" is a classic as well, however much of Duke meanders into redundant ELP-ish territory. There are some interesting riffs and themes but I don't long for a groove to receive slight variations and added layer upon layer for several minutes....all to have it not lead to anything noteworthy (Duke's Travels).
Abacab feels like a much more cohesive album and the more proggy tracks are just more listenable. I love deeper cuts like "Me and Sarah Jane" and "Dodo/Lurker" off Abacab. The obvious tunes make it legendary and the Genesis record I visit often.
The Wells brothers are proving much more generous than I am when it comes to Genesis. I may have to issue an apology to Phil, Tony, Mike (and his Mechanics) for my harsh words.
This is a travesty. You should all be ashamed of yourselves for giving zero points to a brilliant album from one of the greatest bands ever. I guess the only silver lining is that now that you've broken poor Phil's heart again he'll be inspired to write another great record.
This gave me flashbacks to being in junior high and learning guitar. Friends asked me over to play and their entire repertoire was Rush(mostly), Genesis and Yes (sorry CJ). I’m still friends with those guys even if I was the outcast for NOT liking prog and no, I still can’t play in 13/8 but they all still can.
That's okay, Darryl. I admitted to the rest of the guys that every time I listened to Duke on Spotify it would serve up a Rush song as soon as the album ended. I guess the universe is just against me on this one.
Genesis & Yes were always considered prog. King Crimson and ELP, too, but I never got into either of them. Rush always felt more like a rock band and Pink Floyd was so huge they kind of transcended all genres, yet now all of the above (and Jethro Tull) are considered the big bands of prog.
It did seem like a lot of folks liked all of those bands as a point of style. Ask someone what bands they like and if they named one of the aforementioned, they would invariably mention one of the others. Rush went through a lot of changes to their sound and the side long pieces faded eventually. I’m going to revisit Duke. I’ll see which Rush tune pops up when it is done.
Mitch, you seem to have an invisible touch.
TBF I’m a halfway fan of both genesis eras but only about 20% of their songs. The greatest hits album does me just fine. Favorites are Home by the Sea, Mama and Invisible Touch.
I love the banter guys, but as always you featured the wrong album. Genesis had about 7 good years that ended with ABACAB. That album still holds up today. After ABACAB, Phil went pop/awkward R & B with insipid songs like "Another Day in Paradise" and Mr. Rutherford decided to retool his songcraft with a deceptively considered "supergroup" best know for letting the lead singer croon his big hit with Squeeze, "Tempted". SAD. You all need to raise your game when picking an album. The bullseye is just to the left (so to speak)
Thanks for the comment, Jon, glad you're enjoying the discussion. Abacab is yet another great Genesis album but it comes after Duke in the discography and while it has strong singles the Duke Suite is much a better example of their prog roots than Dodo/Lurker. Hope you'll stick with us even if we keep picking obscure albums!
Dodo/Lurker is the worst song on the album IMHO. Looking forward to your next blog.
How so? IMO Dodo/Lurker is the highlight of the album, followed by Abacab and Who dunnit
"Was it you was it me or was it he or she"? Dumd dumb lyrics
It's a shit-post in audio form, it's not meant to be taken seriously! IMO it's hilarious and fun to listen to and WAYYYY ahead of it's time.
I don't think I've ever read or listened to a set of reviews that misses the mark more than this. Especially the person who was questioning the "motive" of why Turn it On Again is in 13.
Didn't even consider that maybe the song just turned out that way, completely because that's just what Phil thought sounded cool. Lazy music criticism lol.
Every time I see someone hating on anything in the progressive rock sphere, a central argument is that prog musicians always just write the music to be as complex as possible. Sure that was the case sometimes, especially with groups like ELP or projects like Yes' Relayer (which I adore), but in the case of an album like Duke, or most of the music by Genesis in general, the complexity is a function of just what the musicians thought sounded interesting. There wasn't a concerted effort to make Duke as complex as possible, they just wanted to write pretty and interesting music.
And even then, what's wrong with technical calculated complex song writing? They're acting like if music is composed and thought out, that somehow makes it artificial and therefore bad. What a crock of shit lol. Duke is just as "authentic" as anything put out by Nirvana or other artists praised for their seeming authenticity, which was just that. Nirvana's biggest tracks are deceptively complex in the production and songwriting. Kurt Cobain was a very intelligent songwriter after all and he had some of the smartest up and coming producers helping him make Nirvana's music come to life. What bands usualy get shit on more for being "fake and artificial" though? Not Nirvana or any of their contemporaries, that's for sure.
I guess some people just like a boring or less composed or slightly sloppy songwriting style? Ok, that's fine. I can get down with music that is a bit more restrained in songwriting choices. However the way they criticized the album doesn't seem to come from a place of understanding or good faith. That all reads as insecurity from someone who doesn't understand how odd meter works and has a limited pallete of "acceptable rhythms"
It also ties into this long standing perception that putting a lot of effort into your songwriting or being good on an instrument is uncool or inauthentic. Fuck the punk rockers and "poptimists" who brought this ideological malaise onto the music community.
I'm sorry you don't understand how 13/8 works or what a deceptive cadence is or how key modulations work, but don't let that be an excuse to lash out in jealousy at the musicians who like to use those tools. People writing complex music and the fans of that music aren't inherently elitists or pretentious, you just don't get what they're going for. And that's ok, I don't get what 99% of punk is going for and I'm totally secure in that.
I also rolled my eyes at the guy who claimed to be a Rush fan but didn't like Duke because it was "too much wanking off" or whatever. Bruh, I love Rush but it's just as easy to say they're wanking off in their songs lol. Rush is the band that wrote La Villa Strangiato: an excersize in self indulgence for gods sake...Pot meet kettle lol.
Then the guy starts questioning why Genesis and Rush are both considered prog. It's like he is completely ignorant if the first quarter or so of Rush's releases and the themes explored in those albums and their influences at the time, which heavily included Genesis! Most of Cygnus Book 2 is very much genesis inspired in the song writing, and Peart himself has stated that Phil was a big influence on his playing style for a bit there in the 70s. Is this satire? Seriously how can a self proclaimed Rush fan be that ignorant of the band's influences and genre they work in.
Like it's fine, they don't have to like it, Genesis isn't a band for everyone. But the rest of the people after that first guy acted like listening to Duke was torturous and that absolutely baffles me. There's way worse music out there and they're acting like Duke is in the same level of quality. What do they consider good if Duke is a 0 rating??
I don't understand the mindset of music writers like this and I don't understand the brain of a music listener who thinks Duke is worthy of a 0 score. Do people just have it out for Phil that bad? Did one of Tony's synthsizers kill a loved one?
I'd like to see what kind of music these people listen to normally. I could tell that they don't have the patience for anything related to prog, and I suspect their music library would reflect that. And that's okz but at least make an attempt to find and talk about good qualities.
All the reviews after the first guy just come off as fart smelling and pure ignorance of the music in an attempt to be cool and edgy. Yawn.
If were to have a blog like this and gave as dismissive and shitty of a review for Nevermind, or Songs for The Deaf, or Damn, or Music Has The Right To Children, or My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy or any other beloved album, I would lose all credibility as a music critic. A negative review is 100% ok and actually important to give other perspectives on a work, but a dismissively ignorant one is never cool.
I’m well aware of Rush’s catalog—early, middle and late. Of course, there are plenty of prog elements in their music, but there’s also plenty of pure rock. And here’s where the chasm between Rush and Genesis widens. Rush rewards its fans for putting up with their self-indulgence. For every “By-Tor” there’s a “Fly by Night”. For every “2112” there’s a “Something for Nothing”. And for every “Camera Eye” there’s a “Limelight.” What’s the reward for sitting through the Duke Suite? “Turn it on Again”? C’mon.
The other difference is personal taste. I actually enjoy “Lamneth” and “Xanadu” and “Cygnus” whereas I’ve never been able to make it all the way through “Roundabout”. So, I bristle when Rush gets tossed under the banner of prog with Genesis and Yes because it’s such a reductive and limiting description of all the types of music Rush encompasses.
You are absolutely correct that Phil Collins was a huge influence on Neil. (And for the record I have nothing against Phil personally. I wish him only the best.) But, an influence is only a small part of the whole individual. You take what you like best about an influence and incorporate it into your own style. Ayn Rand was also a big influence on Neil. But, you don’t many Rush fans racing out to join Dagny in Galt’s Gulch. It’s just another piece of the puzzle. That’s all.
Thank you for your impassioned defense of Genesis, Nick. This is exactly the kind of dialogue we were hoping to inspire. I hope you’ll stay with us.
Let's all agree that no one want RUSH to be considered a prog band. You see it as an insult to RUSH, I see it as an insult to prog.
I will virtually handshake on that deal, sir
I think Genesis is a good band. Songs like Misunderstanding, Abacab, and Turn it on Again are great,
interesting rock songs. Their mid to late 80’s stuff sort of sucked but I can probably come up with 10 solid Genesis songs I like, a couple of them coming from Duke. I am a big fan of prog rock. I like putting in the time. I like to dissect songs while I listen to them and prog rock is usually chock-full of interesting unique moments. Now when the conversation turns to Rush and if they fall under that umbrella I think it’s best putting them under a separate category. It’s a category of one because when it comes to musicianship, creativity, song writing, longevity, influence, the robustness of your song catalog, amount of stellar albums, live shows, the devotion of your fans, and the accumulation of all out wow let me rewind and listen to that drum fill, bass line or guitar part again moments the only place Rush belongs is under the category titled Greatest Band Ever.
I feel Duke has it moments but it seems like it is Genesis still trying to figure out their direction as a trio. Duke sounds like they had one foot in prog and the other in rock at the time. One could argue that "Turn it on Again" is Genesis' finest "rock" creation...there's something about the desperation in that song that gets me every time. Collins' vocals are amazing and the odd meters make perfect sense. "Misunderstanding" is a classic as well, however much of Duke meanders into redundant ELP-ish territory. There are some interesting riffs and themes but I don't long for a groove to receive slight variations and added layer upon layer for several minutes....all to have it not lead to anything noteworthy (Duke's Travels).
Abacab feels like a much more cohesive album and the more proggy tracks are just more listenable. I love deeper cuts like "Me and Sarah Jane" and "Dodo/Lurker" off Abacab. The obvious tunes make it legendary and the Genesis record I visit often.
The Wells brothers are proving much more generous than I am when it comes to Genesis. I may have to issue an apology to Phil, Tony, Mike (and his Mechanics) for my harsh words.