Don brings up an interesting point about what he's looking for in a live album, but I think he's conflating two arguments. I agree that a live album should offer something different than a studio album - a new arrangement, different instrumentation, improvisation, etc. Otherwise you could just listen to the studio album. (I think the songs on Plays Live are performed quite differently, even if their arrangements are largely the same.) That's a very different argument than saying that live albums have to be imperfect or sloppy to be good. While I can tolerate sloppiness in the midst of experimentation or improvisation, that doesn't make it desirable. I'd much rather have a band playing tightly, firing on all engines, not flubbing the lyrics and a well recorded and produced album.
Tesla's 5 Man album is great and I'm sure I'll listen to it again this year by choice. Clapton's Unplugged is mixed, but I'll happily listen to Running on Faith or the other standout tracks. You'd have to literally Clockwork Orange me to get me to ever listen to Ya-Ya's or Hard Rain again. They are both deeply unpleasant listening experiences full of sloppy performances that are way worse than their studio counterparts. I'm glad Rolling Stone thinks they're legendary albums. I find them both unlistenable, and I truly love Dylan and the Stones, each of whom has no fewer than 47 albums that are better than Ya-Ya's or Hard Rain.
I read that piece when you first published it and even though I'm not a Peter Gabriel fan I understood those feelings you shared. That's why, when I was writing my response, one of the things I definitely said in my head was, "Liz is NOT going to like this." But, then again, that's why we started this blog. It's so much more fun to argue about music than all the other crap we're fighting about today. And the consequences of disagreeing are far less damaging. Let me leave you with this olive branch: I was once thrown out of a production of "Swan Lake" for starting a Jujube fight with my brother. So me not liking something as beautifully choreographed as a Peter Gabriel concert is right on brand.
Ha fair enough! I take no insult in having different musical taste (as long as there's no judgment against the happy listener). Speaking of which, I think Mitch isn't giving himself enough credit for his own taste. Maybe you just haven't found the musical you like yet? There's a big difference between Brigadoon and Avenue Q.
Alas, I have too much PTSD from forced participation summer camp productions of Oliver and Annie and Oklahoma!
When I was a kid my grandparents took us to see Fiddler and at intermission I said “well that was wonderful. Let’s get some cheesecake” and everyone laughed and had to break it to me that there were still two hours left. Tevya was singing. The daughter was getting married. It seemed over to me.
Having been lucky enough to see Gabriel play, this record is (for better or worse) what his shows are like. No errors, everyone in the same groove, etc. Even the stage patter seems rehearsed and thought out before hand. When the guitarist and bass player join him for a little dance number (really just them stepping together) during Big Time, it’s fun, but impossible to think it was ever spontaneous.
If that’s your thing, you were in luck on the I/O tour, and you’re in luck here. If you’re like Ken or the guy standing next to me begging for “Shock the Monkey,” for the whole show, maybe not so much. Even the set list was the same for every show I looked up. At least you can hear it here…
First, a tip of the cap to Mitch for putting this masterpiece on the table. If there was a fan nomination process, Plays Live would be my first choice. I've always believed bands that raise their game in live performances occupy a higher plane. PG is the Tom Brady of concert excellence, even if Plays Live is closer chronologically and stylistically to SB38 beating the Panthers early in his career than SBLI beating the Falcons in overtime near the end. Several of the comments already describe how his shows are immersive in a way no other rock show has ever been -- the costumes, the lighting, the stagecraft, the precision, the musicianship, the stamina to ride a bicycle upside-down while singing an entire song, and the dedication to treat every show like a command performance. He plays with the finest musicians on earth, spearheaded by (Boston's own) Tony Levin on bass and David Rhodes on guitar for decades. If there's any downside to Plays Live, it's that it precedes his biggest hits and has almost no radio appeal. "I Have the Touch" is infectious, the most approachable song on the album, yet is a total unknown in pop music. Arguably, Secret World is a better live album for EONS in that it has all the things mentioned in the critical comments -- rearrangements, longer instrumental digressions, a broader musical landscape, captivating stage visuals, and a song catalog fans can sing along to. (Plus, the song Secret World just might be the finest rock song ever written.) Still, Plays Live was my awakening from thinking Gabriel was just another temperamental rocker whose "creative differences" with his Genesis bandmates resulted in the dissolution of a pioneering rock band into realizing he's a visionary well ahead of his time and a true artist in every sense of the word. Thank you, Mitch, for the opportunity to share those thoughts!
NOTE TO THE EDITOR: "Running Up That Hill" was by Kate Bush; should that be read as "Running Up That Solsbury Hill"?
Thanks Ev. Running up solsbury hill was too obviously and goose just started covering running up that hill so I wanted to put in the Kate bush nod. Like Gabriel, I work on many levels .
As an outsider, I appreciate all three views. Well explained for sure. I must be honest, I wasn't very familiar with this album. Appreciate Peter Gabriel but like David Byrne..just a bit too artsy for me. Also..Ken...Ione Skye actually married my favorite Beastie Ad-Rock in the 90s.
If you’re gonna try to enter a Peter Gabriel live album I would have gone for Secret World Live, better set list, more improv compared to studio versions, more groovy world musicians, and . . . Sarah McLauchlan background vocals, the only type she should be allowed to utter.
Don brings up an interesting point about what he's looking for in a live album, but I think he's conflating two arguments. I agree that a live album should offer something different than a studio album - a new arrangement, different instrumentation, improvisation, etc. Otherwise you could just listen to the studio album. (I think the songs on Plays Live are performed quite differently, even if their arrangements are largely the same.) That's a very different argument than saying that live albums have to be imperfect or sloppy to be good. While I can tolerate sloppiness in the midst of experimentation or improvisation, that doesn't make it desirable. I'd much rather have a band playing tightly, firing on all engines, not flubbing the lyrics and a well recorded and produced album.
Tesla's 5 Man album is great and I'm sure I'll listen to it again this year by choice. Clapton's Unplugged is mixed, but I'll happily listen to Running on Faith or the other standout tracks. You'd have to literally Clockwork Orange me to get me to ever listen to Ya-Ya's or Hard Rain again. They are both deeply unpleasant listening experiences full of sloppy performances that are way worse than their studio counterparts. I'm glad Rolling Stone thinks they're legendary albums. I find them both unlistenable, and I truly love Dylan and the Stones, each of whom has no fewer than 47 albums that are better than Ya-Ya's or Hard Rain.
CJ, I think you know how I feel about Peter Gabriel. He makes me feel everything every time. To me, that is mastery. https://lgumbinner.substack.com/p/no-one-will-steal-music-from-me-again?
I read that piece when you first published it and even though I'm not a Peter Gabriel fan I understood those feelings you shared. That's why, when I was writing my response, one of the things I definitely said in my head was, "Liz is NOT going to like this." But, then again, that's why we started this blog. It's so much more fun to argue about music than all the other crap we're fighting about today. And the consequences of disagreeing are far less damaging. Let me leave you with this olive branch: I was once thrown out of a production of "Swan Lake" for starting a Jujube fight with my brother. So me not liking something as beautifully choreographed as a Peter Gabriel concert is right on brand.
Ha fair enough! I take no insult in having different musical taste (as long as there's no judgment against the happy listener). Speaking of which, I think Mitch isn't giving himself enough credit for his own taste. Maybe you just haven't found the musical you like yet? There's a big difference between Brigadoon and Avenue Q.
Alas, I have too much PTSD from forced participation summer camp productions of Oliver and Annie and Oklahoma!
When I was a kid my grandparents took us to see Fiddler and at intermission I said “well that was wonderful. Let’s get some cheesecake” and everyone laughed and had to break it to me that there were still two hours left. Tevya was singing. The daughter was getting married. It seemed over to me.
You are my new project. ;)
Having been lucky enough to see Gabriel play, this record is (for better or worse) what his shows are like. No errors, everyone in the same groove, etc. Even the stage patter seems rehearsed and thought out before hand. When the guitarist and bass player join him for a little dance number (really just them stepping together) during Big Time, it’s fun, but impossible to think it was ever spontaneous.
If that’s your thing, you were in luck on the I/O tour, and you’re in luck here. If you’re like Ken or the guy standing next to me begging for “Shock the Monkey,” for the whole show, maybe not so much. Even the set list was the same for every show I looked up. At least you can hear it here…
First, a tip of the cap to Mitch for putting this masterpiece on the table. If there was a fan nomination process, Plays Live would be my first choice. I've always believed bands that raise their game in live performances occupy a higher plane. PG is the Tom Brady of concert excellence, even if Plays Live is closer chronologically and stylistically to SB38 beating the Panthers early in his career than SBLI beating the Falcons in overtime near the end. Several of the comments already describe how his shows are immersive in a way no other rock show has ever been -- the costumes, the lighting, the stagecraft, the precision, the musicianship, the stamina to ride a bicycle upside-down while singing an entire song, and the dedication to treat every show like a command performance. He plays with the finest musicians on earth, spearheaded by (Boston's own) Tony Levin on bass and David Rhodes on guitar for decades. If there's any downside to Plays Live, it's that it precedes his biggest hits and has almost no radio appeal. "I Have the Touch" is infectious, the most approachable song on the album, yet is a total unknown in pop music. Arguably, Secret World is a better live album for EONS in that it has all the things mentioned in the critical comments -- rearrangements, longer instrumental digressions, a broader musical landscape, captivating stage visuals, and a song catalog fans can sing along to. (Plus, the song Secret World just might be the finest rock song ever written.) Still, Plays Live was my awakening from thinking Gabriel was just another temperamental rocker whose "creative differences" with his Genesis bandmates resulted in the dissolution of a pioneering rock band into realizing he's a visionary well ahead of his time and a true artist in every sense of the word. Thank you, Mitch, for the opportunity to share those thoughts!
NOTE TO THE EDITOR: "Running Up That Hill" was by Kate Bush; should that be read as "Running Up That Solsbury Hill"?
Thanks Ev. Running up solsbury hill was too obviously and goose just started covering running up that hill so I wanted to put in the Kate bush nod. Like Gabriel, I work on many levels .
I bet Peter Gabriel would be a lousy color commentator too.
i had to re-read that a few times to make the connection ;-)
and, yes, if you start a new substack on sports broadcasting, i got a few things to say about tb12 (stfu12)
As an outsider, I appreciate all three views. Well explained for sure. I must be honest, I wasn't very familiar with this album. Appreciate Peter Gabriel but like David Byrne..just a bit too artsy for me. Also..Ken...Ione Skye actually married my favorite Beastie Ad-Rock in the 90s.
I gave her my heart and she gave me a pen.
If you’re gonna try to enter a Peter Gabriel live album I would have gone for Secret World Live, better set list, more improv compared to studio versions, more groovy world musicians, and . . . Sarah McLauchlan background vocals, the only type she should be allowed to utter.